ClimateGate, Copenhagen, and the only two questions that really matter

by Robert S. Siegel on December 7, 2009

Let’s consider the only two questions that matter regarding global warming in the aftermath of ClimateGate and with the Copenhagen United Nations Climate Change Conference beginning Monday.

  1. What if global warming is real?
  2. What if global warming is nothing but a great con-job being played on a gullible world population?

I have the same response to either of the above two questions: Alternative energy.

Alternative energy is win-win, the no regrets option; the best of both worlds. If we focus on alternative energy the right way, by which I mean getting governments out of the way of alternative energy development, then humanity wins the global warming debate, no matter the veracity of global warming.

As a result of ClimateGate, climate scientists have now done more to discredit global warming than the best of the climate deniers. Thanks to some of the leading climate scientists, global warming deniers now have plenty of justification for their views. The mess is leaving many former climate supporters confused.

To read the varying scientific view points on global warming with an open mind is to be unsure; unless you are too sure. The emails at the core of ClimateGate make it much worse.

For example, see this excellent piece in favor of immediate action to stem global warming written by Columbia University geochemistry Professor Peter Kelemen, that I found via a link on the site of the excellent free market thinker and writer, the Atlantic’s Megan McCardle.

“Climate models—which represent the good-faith efforts of a lot of very dedicated people to use a combination of physics and observations of past climate to make the best possible projections—predict some very unfavorable outcomes for humans within the next 50 to 100 years, unless we take substantial action to reduce and mitigate CO2 emissions, starting right now. There is plenty of room for uncertainty, but the time to act is now.”

Note that last phrase, “There is plenty of room for uncertainity,” and compare it to, “some very unfavorable outcomes for humans.”

Climate change is based on predictions that can be wrong because the models can’t predict the near future let alone the long term, and past performance is not an indicator of future results. But there’s that phrase Kelemen uses, “very unfavorable outcomes for humans,” that sends chills through me.

The whole climate change debate sounds like a lose-lose situation for humanity. We the human race are damned if we do something to prevent climate change and damned if we don’t do anything. We can spend trillions of dollars on fixes that no one with any common sense really believes will work but everyone that has read even the first chapter of a basic economic text book realizes will slow down the world’s economy. The other option is to ignore the threat by closing our eyes to the potential that this time they got it right and if we don’t act then we the human race will industrialize ourselves out of existence, or at least into great hardship.

There is a better answer. It is alternative energy and it is through freeing our markets not government collusion and centralization.

To climate supporters I say that we need a vibrant economy to reduce and hopefully eradicate hunger, poverty, disease, and warfare. For more on the power of free markets see just about every column I have posted to this site.

To climate deniers; our continued thirst for oil is our greatest threat to national and international security because oil money pays for international terrorism, Iranian nuclear expansion, Iraqi tribal warfare, and this list could go on for days. With all due respect to our largest oil suppliers, Canada and Mexico, if we want world peace, national and international security, we can’t settle for a drill here drill now solution. We have to send oil down the same path as the buggy whip – to near oblivion.

Certainly, both climate supporters and deniers can agree with either one or both of my above statements to climate supporters and deniers. If we can agree, we can go to the next step; alternative energy is an answer to both the needs of supporters and denier — if we approach alternative energy the right way.

Yes, I know that no alternative energy available today comes close to providing the raw power of carbon based fuels. I also know that the cost of converting the world’s transportation infrastructure to other fuels is enormous. Yet…..In 1903 the Wright Brothers made their first flight. Those daring young men in their flying machines were certainly crazy. But just 30 years later, in 1933, the first airliner was launched and today if I want I can buy a ticket via something called the Internet, get on a flying machine and be on the other side of the planet in roughly 20-24 hours. Yes, I believe alternative energies have a future if we just get our governments out of the way.

We haven’t unleashed the power of the free markets on alternative energy yet because the U.S. which should lead the world in alternative energy development hinders development with myriad regulations and taxes (see wind turbines and biofuels). Yet oil and coal producers benefit from powerful lobbies. We bailed out GM yet the folks at Wheego already produce a viable electric car and GM doesn’t. But our President, the one behind the GM bailout, is now off to Copenhagen to work on the environment. Go figure.

Why are U.S. and world leaders forcing us into a giant ponzi scheme called cap and trade, and an international agreement that will sap the world’s economy? The U.S. cap and trade legislation and international carbon commitments will require the creation or expansion of government agencies and huge bureaucracies to manage the regulations. Government agencies will create the detailed rules and regulations that are the natural outgrowth of overarching laws like cap and trade. These agencies and regulations will further stymie businesses and entrepreneurs around the world by forcing them to waste time and resources for compliance instead of R&D and marketing.

We can and should demand better from our leaders. How about a climate resolution like this:

We the concerned nations of the world pledge to return to Copenhagen one year from today to celebrate having reduced by 50% the governmental –i.e., legal, regulatory, and tax—impediments to the development of alternative energies within our respective countries.

We the concerned nations pledge that during the course of the year 2010, we shall appoint commissions whose sole objective will be to find and fix our nation’s legal infrastructure by developing law that is non-partisan, shows no political favoritism, and leaves government as neither barrier nor partner to the energy business. We pledge to seek objective law that protects without hindering. We recognize the power of free markets and their ability to address today’s problems. We understand that this can be done and we pledge to achieve it.

I realize there is nothing in here to give power and control to the world’s political class. But maybe, just maybe, our so called leaders can put aside their personal desires for power in order to consider options that will give us winning opportunities no matter what the real truth is in the global warming debate. Maybe.

Please help spread this blog!:
  • Digg
  • del.icio.us
  • Facebook
  • Mixx
  • Reddit
  • Technorati
  • RSS
  • Yahoo! Buzz
  • NewsVine
  • StumbleUpon
  • email
  • Yahoo! Bookmarks
  • Google Bookmarks
  • Print
  • Diigo
  • Twitter
  • Slashdot

{ 41 comments… read them below or add one }

1 Freedom is Good December 7, 2009 at 4:17 am

Someone with common sense! My question is we keep giving the Unite Nations more power, COP15 gives the United Nations the power if ratified over our own constitution. With all the corruption that seems like its coming out of Climate-gate what would stop them from exaggerating the scientist analysis of US carbon output and sucking our economy dry. Even more than it would normally. The United Nations is not an elected body, what happens when they are put in charge of all this money, there are always corruption, they would virtually have control of all Energy supplies, Banking ect. Americans have always fought and died for Democracy and here we are losing our sovereignty without a shot being fired. It makes me sick to think about all the men and woman that have fought and died for the United States sovereignty. It is kind of ironic the today starts the Copenhagen Summit, and its the 68th anniversary of Pearl Harbor, I just wonder if that is a coincidence.

Reply

2 Paul December 7, 2009 at 9:18 am

Your “win-win” argument is called “Pascal’s Wager” it was used to argue the same Win-Win to believe in God by Blaise Pascal. It is considered a logical fallacy.

I have to wonder are you paid to write propaganda?

Reply

3 Robert S. Siegel December 7, 2009 at 10:40 am

Sorry Paul. Not a paid by anyone. I do this for fun. I am an unabashed believer in human capacity, the American way, and limited government.

Reply

4 Lynn December 9, 2009 at 7:01 pm

Actually we’re talking about dealing with a low-probability, high impact event where acting on the danger would yield benefits. (See Thomas L. Friedman’s OP ED: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/opinion/09friedman.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss) If global warming were to bring catastrophic events the economic impact (from environmental refugees, the loss of costal lands, droughts, etc) would be much more devastating than the measures to prevent them. Fostering a green economy would help us reduce dependence on oil from contries that are hostile to us, make our air clearner, and, yes, decrease CO2 emissions that might change our climate in irreversable ways. By the time we know for sure, it may be too late to act.
I also am not paid by anyone, but the “deniers” most certainly are paid by the oil and coal industry.

Reply

5 warren carnell December 9, 2009 at 9:35 pm

No Lynn, the “deniers” are just logical people, skeptical by nature, who are able to see thru the nonsense, and understand the these so called “climate scientists” are nothing more then liberals in lab coats…Please be more selective when choosing a side….You don’t to be left out in the cold…

Reply

6 Lynn December 10, 2009 at 1:51 pm

…so keep driving that SUV, I guess because anyone who disagrees with you or wants you to make sacrifices must have mush for brains or be a hired gun. Why don’t we listen respectfully to both sides and make up our minds? But please don’t fool yourself that CO2 is no problem because we exhale it every day. We’re putting out a tremendous amount in the atmosphere–so what do you think the impact of that might be? And if it causes irreversable change, it’ll be too late to do anything then.

Reply

7 Warren Carnell December 10, 2009 at 3:44 pm

If CO2 is distructive to the enviroment, is Oxygen also distructive? They seem to go hand in hand, like peace and love…

8 warren carnell December 7, 2009 at 12:50 pm

Are nuclear and natgas part of your “alternative” energy solution ??
If not, I find that odd, as neither adds to GW…The answer seems to be to live in caves with no fire…and for sure, don’t exhale much..I don’t think even Obamas brother George in Kenya would go for that…

/

Reply

9 Robert S. Siegel December 7, 2009 at 12:59 pm

I absolutely support natural gas and nuclear power. My caveat on nuclear power is that I believe (and my mind is open to change here) that the power of government is needed where nuclear energy is concerned due to security issues.

And please note, as I stated in the article, this is not just about global warming. It is about air pollution and national security and a dynamic economy and providing opportunity for the poor to advance themselves and…….

Reply

10 warren carnell December 7, 2009 at 9:54 pm

Private sector is involved in a major way in every American nuclear facility with the exception of the Navy. Unlike France and Japan..where 80% of their power comes from… but govt is involved in major way…but… No air pollution with either power source though…Check out what’s going on in Utah with Nat Gas…Very interesting…Not sure why it cannot be replicated everywhere…WC

Reply

11 HighPlanesDrifter December 7, 2009 at 10:11 pm

There seems to be a long line liberal media, CYA apologists in this current Climategate bruhaha, so complict and instrumental in the deception, Sharon Begley at NEWSWEEK comes to mind. No matter what is discovered about the climate fraudsters, they will gleefully try to convince us that the darkness outside is really daylight…Really? Well this time fewer are buying it…..

We “knowNothing Flatearthers” have known for a long time that the phony demagogues on the left will stop at nothing to lead the naive, the ill-informed, the un-informed and the mis-informed down this disastrous superhighway of deceit, whether it be single payer health care, cap/trade, or CAFE standards for cars. If they really cared about greenhouse gasses, they would shut their traps and include nuclear power and Natural Gas in the mix. But they don’t so, we “FlatEarthWarmers” must conclude it’s money and control they are after…With the latter being the main dish..OUT..

Reply

12 Lynn December 9, 2009 at 7:06 pm

I wouldn’t presume to speak for all the people concerned about global warming, but Nuclear energy has the difficulty of producing radioactive waste Perhaps it’s not only global warming they’re interested in. It wouldn’t be beneficial to reduce CO2 only to have several disasters that make large swaths of the country unlivable. Natural gas also produces CO2. Nevertheless, most people who are trying to reduce CO2 concede that natural gas and nuclear power are among the options to be used.

Reply

13 HighPlanesDrifter December 9, 2009 at 9:08 pm

Lynn Honey, You seem sweet but naive… …The US Navy haas been using nuclear power for 60 yrs…No problems….France and Japan get 80% of their power from nukes…No problems…These climate fraudsters are concerned about money, power, and control….Not CO2 levels…

Reply

14 Lynn December 10, 2009 at 1:46 pm

Highplanes, honey, baby, chickie-pie: are you going to vacation in Chernoble this year? How about buying a house on Three-Mile Island? The probability of an accident has to go into the cost-benefit analysis–that’s all I’m saying. There are other reasons to want fully renewable energy to pedominate. Unfortunately, they’re not fully up and running right now, and most proposals on climate change acknowledge the need for nuclear, natural gas, etc. Listen to somebody on the other side for a change.

Reply

15 Hghiplanesdrifter December 10, 2009 at 3:54 pm

Lynn, sweetie, At TMI, no radiation actually released into the environment. As for Chernobyl, well, I believe that was in a third-world back-water, who to this day is a major polluter. But really, our Navy….Japan…and I’m sure you love France, all use nukes responsibility… Look at the facts… not live in the world pre-concieved mis-conceptions…………

16 Flea December 8, 2009 at 7:14 am

I made the same point some time ago, but it seems lost on those who are on the war path on either side of the debate. When the Islamic Revolution occurred in Iran, there was a price shock for energy in the United States. This led to (a) doubling of automotive fuel efficiency and (b) doubling of energy intensity in US manufacturing.
The eventual outcome was the largest economic boom for 100 years (which only ended when the Bush administration got into power. How’s that for fiscal mismanagement?).
Any improvement in energy intensity, energy efficiency or sustainable and cheap energy production will have an economic benefit, and yet those who argue against a carbon tax do so because they believe it will cost jobs and profit. Laughable.

Reply

17 HighPlanesDrifter December 8, 2009 at 12:09 pm

To the FLEA (brain)..You’re so far down the super highway of deceit, I can’t even see your tail lights…Sad…Of course, we don’t want to lose more jobs….that’s the whole point..High taxes not only steal our money but our freedom and investment capital….Only thru prosperity in the private sector, can your dream of “energy efficiency” ever come true..You may want to take an Econ 101 course at the local JC…Wake up/grow up….HPD out..

Reply

18 Lynn December 9, 2009 at 7:13 pm

If you were less intent on being rude and calling names, you might have noticed that Flea actually agreed with you! (or at least the point I think you were trying to make–that the private sector should be set free to produce innovation?)

Reply

19 HighPlanesDrifter December 9, 2009 at 9:24 pm

Lynn …You may want to re-read what the Flea(brain) wrote…He’s on the side of the high tax climate fraudsters….Probably believes water vapor/CO2 are a big problem…Next thing you know “oxygen” will be labeled a greenhouse gas….Makes as much sense as carbon dioxide and H2o ruled as dangerous ….Yea, I do like to insult the mis-informed KOOL-AID drinkers… And yes, a strong private sector is the only vehicle that will take us out of this “depression”

Reply

20 RAFI December 10, 2009 at 4:09 pm

Well said Drifter…Many who post here (Lynn-Flea), are really out to lunch…. The way they arrive at conclusions is truely pathetic, even in the face of obvious colusion(ClimSci), they look the other way; not wanting their world view to be shaken then shattered.
When I was a lib, I thought that way. Only a giant dose of Ronald Reagan made me see that the bright light of Capitalism is the only real hope for America and the world.

Reply

21 Lynn December 10, 2009 at 6:28 pm

Is it just possible that some misguided scientists falsified their evidence, but the rest of the evidence still points to global warming? Did you believe OJ was innocent just because some of the evidence may have been manufactured? I’m all for capitalism, but we seem to have many advocates of socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor.

22 Dani December 8, 2009 at 9:56 pm

I often agree with your perspective, but this time I think you may have lost sight of the free market in this whole energy debate. It’s foolish to think that we can’t drill for domestic oil because we need to create alternative energy – nobody forced buggy whip manufacturers to quit making them, but new things came along and the buggy is now obsolete. In a true free-market system, our need for energy independence is created through innovation and minimal government regulation… without giving us freedom to innovate we are shackled to the same (possibly planet-destroying) sources of power. Interestingly enough, as much as the American people are berated for being “addicted to oil” we don’t hear much about how “addicted” our government is to oil and energy taxes… still the reason why here in California a gallon of gas is over $3/gallon even though oil is dropping in barrel price.
Without a strong economy and an inspired, hopeful workforce, nothing will change for the betterment of anybody… Mother Earth included.

Reply

23 Lynn December 9, 2009 at 7:10 pm

And the oil industry is “addicted” to the government subsidies in the form of free (or very cheap) access to government land and the development money that was funneled their way rather than to solar and wind energy. Oil and coal companies have not had to pay for the enviromental impact of their products, all of us have.

Reply

24 Rafi December 9, 2009 at 9:47 pm

More Kool-AID intoxicated thinking from Lynn….Are you really young (naive) or really elderly (Altimers)??? Oil was put in the Earth for us to use wisely…The fact that companies make money off it, is the American way…Would you be surprised to learn that people make money producing wind and solar?? See what you can learn here???

Reply

25 Lynn December 10, 2009 at 1:41 pm

I think oil was made when organic material was placed under pressure. But if you think someone put it there for us, let’s make sure we use it wisely. Let oil companies make money, but let them pay for the environmental impact of what they do rather than forcing the taxpayers to subsidize and clean up after them. The same goes for solar and wind, by the way, but for my tax dollar, if it must be spent, I’d like to see renewable resources supported. As for my age–I’m old enough to spot a straw man when i see one.

Reply

26 RAFI(StrawMan) December 10, 2009 at 3:33 pm

I guess you told me…I try to make it a point not to argue with drones, who are intoxicated with Kool-Aid, so enjoy your alternative universe. Hopefully, someday you will see thru the fraudsters with whom you are aligned ; making your world seem so pitiful and glum….Most likely, you are still very young (naive/mis-informed), as there is no fool like an old fool…

27 Brett December 9, 2009 at 2:57 pm

On a related side-note, was there any particular reason why the EPA made their announcement on 12/7, Pearl Harbor Rememberance Day?

Coincidence or otherwise?

Reply

28 HighPlanesDrifter December 9, 2009 at 5:06 pm

I don’t think they noticed or cared….More about solidarity the fraudsters in Hoaxinhagen..

Reply

29 Lynn December 10, 2009 at 3:53 pm

@ Warren: CO2 & methane are the worst offenders. We’re releasing all the carbon from those organisms who lived long ago (fossil fuels) that aren’t supposed to be here. Also we’re eating a lot of Beef, and they produce a lot of methane, along with requiring a lot of fossil fuels to maintain (fertilizer for the corn they’re fed in industrial farms). These gasses are not harmful in the right proportion, but if the balance is off, the temperature rises. Noboddy can truly predict how big the outcome would be, but we know we’re altering the chemistry of the atmosphere. So we could try to stop exhaling and control those unfortunate personal incidents, but that probably wouldn’t be enough.

Reply

30 Lynn December 10, 2009 at 4:01 pm

@Rafi: So if I disagree with you, I must be a drone? Maybe I just haven’t watched enough FOX News (I know I’m making an assumption here, but the discourse seems to be shot anyway!) From where I sit, I’m thinking you’re just so mistrustful of the government and of science that you couldn’t recognize a real threat if it came along. No way of knowing who’s right at this point. Maybe you’re old enough that it doesn’t pay for you to change your behavior for the benefit of the planet.
It’s disheartening to me that the level of evidence necessary to invade a country is much lower than that to make positive changes. Remember when GDB kept saying that once the gun’s gone off it’s too late? And even if global warming turns out not to be as big a deal as we fear, there are still benefits to reducing our dependence on foreight oil. Remember all those people in the middle east who hate us? All those people with asthma would love better air quality, etc (which was the point of Bob’s post, I believe).

Reply

31 RAFI December 10, 2009 at 4:36 pm

Lynn BabyCakes….. Who is Bob? Who is GDB….I’m at a loss…I don’t watch TV so I’ve never seen FOX News…Although I’d probably only agree with half of what they say…You are right about my distrust of government and science, along with media (mainstream) and academia…I call them the 4 Horsemen of Deceit, for obvious reasons. I don’t care which party is in power, I am skeptical of ALL they say and the more they want to do for me(us)-(ObambaCare) the more skeptical I am…
Foreign oil from Iran/Saudi Arab/Ven…Not for me…I want to get our own oil, NatGas from all available domestic sources and really develop alternative sources as much as possible including nuke power which really is safe when proper safeguards are in place. Please look into what I’m saying here and have the courage to see the truth.

Reply

32 Lynn December 10, 2009 at 5:54 pm

Ugh. Robert S. Siegel = the blogger in charge of MYODB; GDB should be GWB, George W. Bush. You impuned the motives of people concerned about global warming. I just pointed out that nuclear power is not without its drawbacks. I’m fine with nuclear power if the companies find a place to put the waste before building the plant and don’t rely on taxpayers to carry the cost of storing it for them and dealing with other kinds of environmental impact. You mistrust science and the government; I mistrust big business, too–young and naive as I am.

Reply

33 RAFI December 10, 2009 at 11:06 pm

Oh “W” ..now we are connecting..Ahh, he’s long gone and no longer relevant …Bush derangement syndrome will get you nowhere…He was hated by the left and disliked by the right…Kinda in a political no man’s land…
But everything involving energy has drawbacks and costs. Just need to control them as well as we can…I used to think like you , that BIG BUSINESS was inherently bad. But with BIG comes efficiency, lower prices etc…Now I’m a fan of conscientious BIG B … Hard to get away from BB, esp in computers, cars, planes, etc…Got me???????…OK you’re, young …I’ll take it easy on you…But, Capitalism is the ONLY way out of the mess we’re in….Don’t doubt me…

Reply

34 Lynn December 11, 2009 at 12:20 pm

No problem with capitalism, but if BIG business is efficient and profitable, it shouldn’t need government support. Nevertheless, we have to deal with the system we have, so with my tax dollars I’d like policies supported that will help our economy grow in ways that will be advantageous to the environment. When we had cap and trade for Sulfur Dioxide, companies realized, “hey we’re losing a bunch of our product” and actually made more money. We need regulation because in capitalism there’s temptation to make the expedient decision, cash out and retire to an island or expect the taxpayers to bail you out if your business isn’t sustainable over time.

I’ve got to change my screen name, apparently we have trouble taking women seriously on this forum.

Reply

35 Robert S. Siegel December 11, 2009 at 1:21 pm

See my response in today’s post; The nuclear option to climate change.

Reply

36 RAFI December 11, 2009 at 8:02 pm

Changing your name won’t matter…It what you say and the lame way you think that gets you in trouble…

Reply

37 Btok December 15, 2009 at 12:43 am

This Copenhagen Summit has nothing to do with Climate Change or the Environment! It is about countries signing away their Sovereignty, so that they can be under the Communist Dictates of the United Nations and the International Monetary Fund that belongs to the Global Elitists!
The best deal for Canada is no deal and I hope Environment Minister Jim Prentice and Prime Minister Harper, take that attitude seriously as they will find should they come back after having signed away Canada’s Sovereignty, or our ability to have a quality lifestyle via draconic Carbon Taxes and Cap and Trade, in this “non -Global Warming Country”, that their political careers have ended!

If I were Jim Prentice,I would just tell the truth and state Canadian’s do not believe in the Carbon Emission Climate Change and on top of that it has been found – not in a small way that, the Scientific Data has been Severely Comprimised in many various actions, therefore until new true Scientific Data has been brought forward over time proven methods with honest Scientific Data brought forward!

Until that time Canada sees no way to put forward or provide funds or ratify or sign the Copenhagen Treaty. This deal is Null and Void!

Request that PM Harper DOES NOT sign the Copenhagen Treaty, thereby causing Canadians to lose their Sovereignty and Freedom, email the PM at: pm@pm.gc.ca

Sign the petition to protest the Inaccurate Science measurements that are being used to base the Copenhagen Treaty off of: http://www.gopetition.com/online/32485.html

I will say no more except you will be shocked by what you will hear in this main stream radio clip below!

http://2gb.com.au/index2.php?option=com_newsmanager&task=view&id=4998

Check out what Government is doing behind your back at : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VebOTc-7shU

Reply

38 Hghiplanesdrifter December 15, 2009 at 8:04 pm

Seems like our elected officials need the big “wake-up” call…Hopefully in Nov next…(Before the polar ice caps melt…haha Algore)….Torches and pitchfork time…Necessary to show them they work for us, not the other way around…Any elected official on the side of the climate fraudsters, MUST be defeated and shown the door..

This from an earlier post….

We “KnowNothing Flatearthers” have known for a long time that the phony demagogues on the left will stop at nothing to lead the naive, the ill-informed, the un-informed and the mis-informed down this disastrous superhighway of deceit, whether it be single payer health care, cap/trade, or CAFE standards for cars.
If they really cared about greenhouse gases, they would shut their traps and include nuclear power and Natural Gas in the mix. But they don’t so, we “FlatEarthWarmers” must conclude it’s money and control they are after…With the latter being the main dish.. Drifter out…

Reply

39 bernice lipkin December 20, 2009 at 4:58 am

The Copenhagen cohort was really getting me depressed in that they acted as if there was no doubt there’d be increasing global warming, so lets give our money to the rich people running the poor countries.. Then I came across your article promoting alternative energy. It cheered me up. Thank you.

Reply

40 John B February 2, 2010 at 12:17 pm

The big problem for Greens is that the only non-carbon based energy source is nuclear. Building windmills and solar panels will accomplish almost nothing. They produce a lot of capital costs and maintainence costs but not much energy. However most Greens don’t want nuclear either. They must make a choice sooner or later because the world isn’t going to allow itself to use as little carbon based energy as they want unless the energy is replaced somehow.

Reply

41 fortuna zaklady bukmacherskie June 24, 2010 at 6:28 am

Heyy dude, can i post articles to your blog ? Let me know if you are interested

Reply

Leave a Comment

Spam Protection by WP-SpamFree Plugin

Previous post:

Next post: